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Mark Brisley
Managing Director and Head of Dynamic Fund

Mark Bowden
Expert in Body Language

PRESENTATION

Mark Brisley: You are tuning into On the Money with Dynamic Funds, a podcast series that delivers access to some of the industry's most experienced active managers and thought leaders. We're sitting down to ask them the pertinent questions to find out their insights on the market environment, and navigating the investment landscape.

Mark Brisley: Hello, I'm Mark Brisley, Managing Director and Head of Dynamic Funds. Thank you for joining us on another episode of On the Money. In an unprecedented time where we are all settling into a work from home routine, and by extension, looking to maximize our potential with virtual tools, displacing face to face interactions in our business lives, and even in our personal relationships, there's never been a more important time for us to show our very best to our organizations, our clients, and perhaps most importantly to ourselves.

Our guest today, Mark Bowden has been voted the number one body language professional in the world for two years running. Yes, now is the time to sit up straight, and yes, even if you are sitting at home. Mark is the founder of communication trading company, Truth Plane, whose clients include leading business people, politicians, prime ministers of G7 powers, and presidents of Fortune 500 companies from firms like Dell, Samsung, Microsoft, and Johnson and Johnson just to name a few.

Mark's highly acclaimed TEDx talk has reached millions of people. He is regularly called upon by media to comment on body language around elections and debates. Mark has written four books on body language and human behavior. I'm just thrilled to have him here today. Mark, welcome, and thank you for joining us.

Mark Bowden: Well, it's my great pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me here.

Mark Brisley: Mark, I know when you started all of this, it wasn't in a virtual world. Maybe the most important question I can ask is even in the absence of how we're communicating now, why is body language so important and part of effective communication in our lives, whether we're dealing with virtual or face to face?

Mark Bowden: Yes. Regardless of whether you are on a camera with somebody, or you're in the real world with them, or even if you're sending an email to somebody or on the phone, we make up our idea, our assumption about other people based mainly on nonverbal data. We look at them, we try to see their behavior, we try and hear the tonality of their voice.

We look at the framework around them, maybe when an email was sent, because there might not be any nonverbal data in there other than when it was sent, or does it have a smiley face at the end of the message. We decide, within a fraction of a second, how we should view that person, what personality, what character, and also how they feel and intend towards us. We make very quick assumptions. Basically, we make assumptions about people and we mainly do that based on their nonverbal behavior, their body language. That's why it's so important.

Mark Brisley: Mark, I've often heard that someone has a first impression of people within seconds. When you do meet someone for the first time and whether it's face to face or now across a video or virtual communications platform. Is that true, and is body language playing a big role in that first communication or first interaction between two people?

Mark Bowden: Well, it's probably truer than you even think, because we can judge somebody within about a one-50th of a second. That's the kind of frame rate that our brain has. We can take a new picture every 50th of a second and make very quick assumptions.

Think about your primitive fight and flight system. It tells out of the corner of its eye if there's movement there that is potentially threatening to you. That's why sometimes you'll jump out the way of just a paper bag blowing in the wind, because it had the same pattern for your instinct as a predator would have down on the ground. Now it wasn't a predator, it was a paper bag blowing in the wind, but your instinct it's better for it to be safe than sorry.

Quite honestly, we can make an assumption about another human being, not within seconds, but within a fraction of a second, and that can cause us, that assumption can cause us to do some very instinctual behaviors around them. Some patterns of behavior that we often call fight and flight. It can literally raise our heart rate and breathing rate before consciously we can control it.

Mark Brisley: That's really interesting. If I could rewind back to, let's say, March of 2020 when we were all living pretty normal lives, commuting to work and lots of face to face interaction, looking at your resume and your level of experience and expertise, what went through your mind about how people are going to, in the business context, have to start communicating, and as it pertains to what you do best, how did you adjust and where did you see the opportunity to help people be better in a virtual communication world?

Mark Bowden: Yes, that's really interesting. For me, the moment I got the information that it was most likely everybody was going to be working from home. In terms of those of us that were used to working in office environments, where we meet people face to face. Once I heard that information, I was straightway to my clients saying, "Look, if you need to influence and persuade people, if getting your message across is still important to you, your people are going to be on video. They're going to be making video calls." Yes, it would be easy for them to go to their usual thing of being on the phone with people. Anybody who can get on a video call with your client or your potential client is more likely to win more influence and persuasion with them. What I said was, we really need to start training immediately and getting people used to and buoyant and optimistic about getting on video calls with people, because the sooner they get face to face in that virtual world, the more optimistic their colleagues and clients or potential clients are going to be.

I immediately started to construct some training that was fast and effective for people in their home office to be able to connect with their colleagues and clients and potential clients in a way that was very personal and very empathetic but still very, very professional.

Mark Brisley: In some of the communication that you witnessed, by people or your clients virtually, did they forget that body language was still important? Was there an awareness that you felt had gone away? What were some of the things you started to see as this evolved?

Mark Bowden: Yes, here's the interesting thing. Is say, you and I were meeting in our physical office like we would most of the time, I would be able to see you enter the room and get an image of your full body as you entered the room. My instinct would instantly send me a presumption as to your feelings and intentions towards me. It would be going, "Well, is he upset at the moment or is he happy to be here or is he agitated by something?"

It would make some quick theories of mind about you. Based on getting a full-body image of you. Maybe we walked to the meeting together, as well. Maybe I got some resonance with you. I started to fall in line with your pattern of being and I felt more comfortable with you as we went into that meeting. Now, where we're just joining each other immediately on video and quite possibly, I'm only seeing your head, and the image is not really of that higher quality as well. Maybe you're visiting me virtually via your laptop, which is still on your desk. I'm kind of looking up your nose, at your head with only the ceiling as the context for you.

Just having me tell you that story, it's really obvious how different the context is that I'm seeing you and how much information my instinct can get. When insufficient data, we default to negatives. The immediate thing to say is, the video call has insufficient data compared to a live meeting as to how you're feeling and intending. I'm more likely to default to negative, but it's okay because there are ways to countermeasure that insufficient data and influence or persuade you to a more optimistic view of me and our relationship with each other.

Mark Brisley: That's an interesting point that you're making around how much of someone you can see in these video environments. You talked about the environment around the person as well. I definitely have some questions for you around what body language entails, or what are the components, but how important is the environment that someone finds themselves in?

Mark Bowden: Yes, that's a really good question. Well, let me give you an extreme around this so you can understand very clearly how important environment is. If I say to you, "It's a sad day for me today," and the environment that we're in is a funeral home, then there's some good reasoning to what you're instantly going to understand, "Okay, I think this is something to do with the fact of their, maybe a relation, deceased at the moment."

If I say to you, "It's a sad day for me today," and all you see is a completely white wall behind me. Now you don't have any context, and now what's your brain going to do to work out why it's a sad day. Let me now put it into more of a business scenario. Maybe I say to you, "I want to talk to you about the numbers," but you don't see my face. You don't see that I'm smiling.

Now, what do you imagine if I say to you, "I want to speak to you about the numbers," and you can't see my face and you don't see me smiling, but you don't see me frowning but are you optimistic or pessimistic about it? The environment will give us an idea, the facial features, but also, the environment that we're in will give us an idea of how should we take this message?

Then to further this idea, you may see icons in that background, things in the background. Maybe you're on a video call with me and you're in my home, you may see things in my background that help you understand that I value some of the same things as you.

I mean, in my home office environment, I have stacks of books around me that might help you understand that I value books and that I write books as well because you'd see some of my books, you'd also see images of my family, family pictures, photographs, that may help you understand that family is important to me, and if family is important to you, then we might resonate around that. At least you might trust me more because you might think, "Well, Mark reads some stuff, he writes some stuff, family is important to him."

You'd also see images of things from around the world. You might go, "Mark maybe traveled quite a bit or certainly is interested in different cultures, different places that he doesn't live." Maybe that resonates with you. If there's no background whatsoever, what's your mind got to go on in terms of placing me in relation with you? It can only go on what I say but you decide me before I've even said anything. It's really important to set up some kind of background or environment to help people get the best or most accurate view of you.

Mark Brisley: You really do draw a link that the environment itself is definitely forming a part of the overall body language experience?

Mark Bowden: Absolutely. It's a huge part of it. When we're working out what somebody is saying, we take in their body language. In fact, first of all, look, we listen to sound, obviously. To work out language, obviously, sound is important but the language center of our brain is also connected to the visual cortex as well. It's also looking at the lips move and it's going, "Okay, based on the sound that I heard and the movement of those lips." The brain is going, "What's my best guess of the phonics that I heard?" Now it's constructing an idea of the words that were said, not only from the sound but from the image.

Now it's looking for not just the words but the meaning. It says, "What do I see happening in the body right now that would help me predict not only the words but the meaning of this?" Then it looks at the surroundings, the context that the words and the mouth and the body are in and it goes, "Given this wider context, again, what's my best prediction of what this means and what the feeling and intention is?"

Look, there's hearing the words and knowing the words. That's best done by email, knowing the words. If you just want somebody to know what you are saying, send an email but understand, they'll find it hard to predict your thoughts and feelings and intentions unless you write those into the words. Unless you say, "Let me take you through the numbers and I'm really happy about these numbers," they won't know.

They'll have no idea whatsoever and they'll default to negatives around them. Would be my gamble. It won't be the case every time but over 100 times of you saying, "Let me take you through the numbers," and there being no nonverbal data, I will win most times on people took the numbers as being negative before they'd even heard them from you or seeing them from you. Your body language and your context is incredibly important when it comes to meaning and intention.

Mark Brisley: I'd really love to dive into the physical components then of body language. Could you share with us that when we say that phrase, body language, what does that entail, especially in the video or virtual context?

Mark Bowden: That's really interesting because the unfortunate thing is, is there is no such thing as body language. Obviously, I've written a whole bunch of books on body language, and the idea of body language is a metaphor, an idea that we have to make it simpler for people to understand. Really when we're talking about body language, we're talking about nonverbal communication or what some behaviorists would call ACS, which is animal communication system.

Which means it's not language, it doesn't displace, which means it can't talk about the past or the future, and it can't talk about itself. It's not self-reverential. The language that I'm speaking right now, English, that's a real language because I can be self-referential. I've just been doing it with you right now. I've been talking about my own language using that language. Body language can't do that.

Body language is our system for communicating our feelings and intentions right now. When we think it's about something in the past or the future, that's just an inference that we have. What are the things that body language is or nonverbal communication is made up of? There are many, many things, but let me just introduce you to a few. There's something that we call descriptors, which is when, for example, the eyes or the head or the body move in such a way that they're trying to describe or show you or illustrate what you're talking about at the same time.

When I said the word 'illustrate', I actually moved my hand like I was holding a pen and drawing a picture. Were you able to see me, you'd have seen that illustrator illustrating the idea of the word. That would have helped your brain get it a lot better. It would have actually excited your brain a lot more than just hearing the word.

There's something else, let me introduce you to this, baton gestures. The reason they're called baton gestures is it's rather like a baton that a conductor has. It's like a conducting stick. As I'm talking to you right now, I'm moving my hands and my head and my face in a way that is mirroring the rhythm of the words that I'm saying. That would again, help you understand what I'm saying by conducting out the rhythm.

I can also have baton gestures that are illustrative as well. Let me introduce you to one more idea, which is self soothers, or some people call these adapters. They're the gestures that happen when we want to comfort ourselves. It might be, I'm rubbing my cheek right now as I talk to you and that's producing a soothing feeling to me, and it might communicate to you that I'm slightly worried about something.

Now that might be true or might be false. Maybe I'm just feeling comfortable right now that I rub my face, but the land of the person giving the communication is not necessarily the same land that the receiver of the communication is in. If I wanted you to know that I'm comfortable right now and not worried, I'd have to tell you that at the same time as doing the self-soothing gestures.

Now all of this to say, when we're on video, we might want to make sure that we are including people being able to see some or all of those type of gestures. Maybe we want them to see some of our baton gestures or our illustrative gestures. Maybe we don't want them to see so many of those self-soothing gestures, but because of the nature of the camera, it shuts off some of the image from people and shows some very specific image. We may want to make sure that sometimes our hands come into the frame so our audience can see those illustrators or baton gestures.

Mark Brisley: One of the questions I had for you as well was not everybody is perfectly comfortable being seen in the video context. They maybe have scripted some of their notes. They maybe have some written points down. Now they have to also start thinking after listening to this podcast, "Oh, I've got to get my head around all the physical attributes I'm doing," and just getting overwhelmed. Are there some best practices or ways to prepare or things they can do to feel more comfortable, make it seem more natural? What's been your experience there?

Mark Bowden: Absolutely. Look, the main thing to pay attention to is that everything can be learned. If you don't think you're comfortable right now, or you don't think you're that good at it, don't worry because you're only going to get better each time you try it out. My guess is when you started doing this podcast, which you're great at now, my guess is the first few times you started interviewing people. Probably if we look back, you may be not so good, I'm not saying you were bad, but my guess is you've improved over time.

My guess is also, you probably started listening to some other people's podcasts and going, "I really like this podcast. What is it that I think they're doing to be a really good interviewer, and could I do the same things?" Look, here's what I want people to do is to know that you can learn how to be a great communicator on camera. Watch some people who you think are really good and think to yourself, "What is it that they're doing, verbally and non-verbally, what is it they're doing? How are they presenting themselves? What are they doing physically that I think makes them good and can I do some of those things?"

Now it's not, "Can I copy them?" It's, "Can I do some of the same behaviors, my version of the behaviors that I see them doing?" It's various, some people would say, authentic to you, it's your version of the best practice. Look, let me give you some best practice that I think everybody can do. I think you'll probably see this in really good presenters, whether they're doing a podcast or whether they're on video, in fact.

I think what you're going to see is a lot of open body language. That is to say, look, if you imagine a big roaring fire and it's a cold day and you come in from that cold day to that big roaring fire, what do you think your body would do? Well, your arms would open up, your chest would open up. You display more of that stomach area in the front of your body because you'd hold your head up. You'd be prone to more of the warmth. You'd make yourself prone to more of the warmth.

Now, think about closed body language. That's like when you go outside and you think, "Oh gosh, it's a bit chilly now," and you start to tuck in your elbows into your ribs to stop the heat escaping from underneath your armpits. If you're standing still, you maybe end up crossing your arms to keep yourself warm that way and your head tucks in and your shoulders come up as you have this kind of turtling behavior to keep yourself warm and now your body isn't prone to the elements, it's protected.

Look, when you're on camera, just think about being more open and think about the warmth. Think about, "Can I imagine that that person down the other end of the camera is a warm fire for me, and I'm basking in the glow of that heat when it could be so cold outside of that?" Keep that image in your mind and practice some of the body language and behavior that comes around that. I guarantee that your ability on camera will improve immensely.

Mark Brisley: Mark, so many of our listeners are going to be people that work in the capacity of providing financial advice, and a big part of that, obviously, in any communication is the building of trust or the maintaining of trust. In your experience, is body language something that could actually be a detriment to trust if not used appropriately, and have you seen in the virtual context bad examples or areas where we should think about or be aware of in how we're conducting ourselves?

Mark Bowden: Let me give you a number one thing that I see quite often, which is not only about body language, but it's about a cultural context as well, which probably won't win you much trust. If you're on video, and you have your window behind you. There's a lot of light coming in the window, which means that the camera chip won't quite know what you're meant to be focusing on. It just believes if something is lit, that's the focus, and if something is dark, that's not the focus.

When you're in front of a bright window, what happens is, is you go very, very dark into silhouette, and the light becomes very, very bright, which means I can't see your face very well anymore. Now I've got insufficient data around what's happening in your face, and when insufficient data, I default to negatives. If you want to start telling me about the numbers, the great product or service that you have. I'm sure you have great product, great service. I'm sure you have product with great numbers, but my instinct is going, "I can't see the face, insufficient data, default to negatives." I'm not optimistic about anything that you're telling me.

Now, I want you to put on top of this, that there have been news items and films and media after media after media that tells me when I see somebody in silhouette, I'm looking at somebody who's part of some witness protection scheme, which means they're either a criminal, or they have information on criminals, or they're on the run from criminals, or the police or some terrorist organization. This isn't a good look for you right now, in terms of trust and credibility.

Look, we have this thing of our eyes look towards the light, so can you get light onto your face, and light yourself up as well as possible, so that we can see what's going on there and that will give you way more trust and way more credibility, and way more optimism around your product, your service, any numbers or ideas that you're putting towards people.

Mark Brisley: Mark, when I think of communication in virtual or even face to face, I break it down into two groups. One is presentation where we're making a presentation. The other one is conversation. I think most of our listeners today, the dominant use of technology or virtual communication tools would be for conversational purposes. Are there some best practices or things you've observed that make a conversation over a virtual technology platform more effective, or some best practices that make it seem more natural and more engaging?

Mark Bowden: Yes, absolutely. I think this will resonate with people is that if you've got a deck, a slide deck, and there's every reason to have one, especially in financial areas, there are some great slides, there's some great numbers to look at, there's some great charts that really make the point. The problem is when you start presenting from that slide deck, it's easy for it to easily slip into full-on presentation, "Look at my charts. Let me talk about this." Let me educate you, rather than allowing for conversation, which is, "You educate me. I educate you. You educate me. I educate you." We understand each other.

Again, the slide deck can push us accidentally into presentation rather than conversation. Here's a technique to avoid that because I think sometimes it's really worth avoiding. Is put up your slide and then instantly make it conversational by going, "Take a quick look at this and let me know what hits you immediately about it."

I already had my say because I showed you an image. I now want your understanding of this image, how it is right now. "Give me your feedback on this. Tell me what numbers stand out for you. What do you think this means right now?" Or, "Have a look at this number here. What does that mean for you in the context of your portfolio at the moment or the way you're thinking about your life or your investment?"

Throw it back immediately for conversation rather than getting stuck into, "Let me take you through all the numbers. Let me tell you what we're thinking about it. Let me tell you why the portfolio manager has put it together like this." Is immediately throw it back for their idea around it, and that will make it even more conversational and stop you slipping into presentation.

Mark Brisley: I've had a couple of interesting conversations with senior clients of ours that have let demographics slip into their conversation. By that I mean, some of my more elderly clients or people that were not as technologically-savvy, they're not interested in jumping on to the virtual communication platform. I question that or challenge that. I know if you're a grandparent, you've probably been using FaceTime for years.

What's been your experience, and are you making a huge mistake as a business person to assume that the demographic status of someone, especially related to age, would be a reason to not use this as a communication tool?

Mark Bowden: Well, I think you're absolutely right. The reality is, is anybody telling you, "You know what? I don't really like or use that video," you just spoke to your grandchildren via it last week or the weekend. The reality is, is you are most likely using it. Maybe not the platform that I was inviting you onto, so maybe we need to find a way to get you onto that platform, or maybe I need to find a way, within the confines of the organization, to get on a platform that you're already on.

I think you have to offer people how much better the communication will be, how much more they'll be understood, how much quicker the conversation will be if we can see each other. That's the offer that I will make. I'll say, "Look, I know you might be used to talking about this over the phone or face to face but what I've been finding recently is if we can get on FaceTime together, or if we can get on platform X together, and converse around this face to face, the whole conversation goes much quicker. I really understand what you need and I can serve you better, and you get a better result out of me and actually, the whole meeting is way shorter, as well."

Offer them a compelling argument for getting on this platform where everybody can see the nonverbal and you can be in their home with them which has huge value. They can be in the home with you as well and they can see how your home life resonates with theirs. I guarantee if you make them that offer, you're going to have much better meetings and be more influential and persuasive for sure.

Mark Brisley: I think, and you've been on this platform. Things like TED Talks have shown us that listening to a lecture or a more lengthy presentation has just had so much more impact with being able to see the person deliver it. It's been astounding in how popular a vehicle that has become for learning.

Mark Bowden: What's important about that is that Ted Talk is 12 to 15, maybe 20 minutes maximum of one person talking. If you've got a presentation and you're going over 20 minutes, you are pushing against an ocean tide of media that people enjoy. You're going, "Yes, you know what? I think I've got something better than a TED Talk for you via video." You may well do, but Ted has had some great, great speakers, they still only get to do 20 minutes.

I think you've got to think about exchanging length of time for engagement. Those TED Talks are engaging, because they're short and compressed, and they open up a conversation with others. They cause you to go to your friends and family and go, "You've got to listen to this talk, it was really interesting, they were saying this, and I thought this and what do you think about that?" It's to open up conversation, not to necessarily educate people in the totality of that area.

Mark Brisley: Mark, you've dealt with some pretty heavy hitters in your career in terms of public profile people, business leaders. I wanted to close off today's discussion with you, and you've been very generous with your time, around some of the people that you think have made really nice adjustments from being in a world where there was typically face to face, or being able to get in front of their audiences to now doing a good job in the virtual world. Are there some clients of yours, and really impressed by or proud of and how they've made that migration?

Mark Bowden: Yes, I'm not going to be able to name names for you because outside they have no business. What I will say is that what I've seen the best of them do is allow people into a more intimate part of their life, to allow people into their home, to let people see things that are icons of the life that they live. So that people understand that those leaders have some strong similarities and strong resonance with them. They value some of the same things.

If you can let people see visually some of the things that you value, you'll get way more resonance. It's about being in my experience from the clients that I've seen who have been excellent at this, being a bit braver about showing people a little bit more of you and the life that you generally lead, and that you're under some of the same confines and same pressures as they are. Just take a little bit more risk around showing people more, I think is the answer that many great communicators have taken around this and been very successful.

Mark Brisley: Mark, this has been really insightful and very relevant to the work that we do and the work we do with our clients. The most important part is the work they do with theirs. I want to thank you for taking the time today. I have to say, it's really nice that we have people in the world with the expertise like yours that have translated quite smoothly to the more virtual context. Just thrilled that you were able to join us today.

Mark Bowden: Thanks so much. If you need me back anytime, you know where I am.

Mark Brisley: You've been listening to another edition of On the Money with Dynamic Funds. For more information on Dynamic and our complete fund lineup, contact your financial advisor or visit our website at dynamic.ca.

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